Making a Living Playing Tourneys

[soozurich]

I would love to win enough money regularly to live on my poker winnings. This seems impossible though!! I guess I'm impatient. I've been back into playing poker since last April and I'm sure I need to give it more time to master...

Like they say, a minute to learn, a lifetime to master. I have days where I think I'm just hot as heck and winning, busting out players. And other days where I look and act really stupid!! I get my butt kicked!! I really want to be more consistent in the "winning" dept. I am reading all the books, watching the videos/dvd's, a big fan of wpt, wsop, etc... ho hum. The life of a poker bum.

How many people do you know actually make some decent money off poker to live on? Besides the big pros? Patience, I know....I'm a little bummed right now, but I love poker and will stick with it. I do not risk very much money yet.....I need to get better before I spend too much. I love the sit-n-go tourneys. I can do pretty good in those. But the multi-tables....I find that I can easily beat about 200 people, only to bust out about 1/2 way through the tourney! oh well....that's poker...why do we stick with it? Are we gluttons for punishment, or do we like the excitement? It's both for me...lol!

I am going to go read Doyle's book and do more practicing....see ya at the tables. Oh, and p.s., please don't raise me too much at the tables....lol

:agree: :kitty:

[OCVI]

Making a living off of tournament (and i assume you mean MTT) poker is difficult mostly because you need a lot of sustained luck to win a tournament.

My suggestion though, is to get working on cash games. If you're a tournament player, go for NL cash games since its the format you'll be used to. The major difference is that luck is generally less of a factor in cash games. Except for some! :happy:

As for your comment on how many people make serious income off of poker, some people say 2%, some 5%. As for how many I know, of my personal friends I only know of one other making proper money. Of people I've met in the world of online poker, it's of course a different story. And its not just the big name pros - there are some online pros on this network, and many on other networks. You wont find any true pros below 10/20 or 4-4NL generally though, except when the 10/20 and up are dead, and the limit gurus are forced to play 5/10. But most of the people making money are semipro, meaning poker isn't their job. Essentially semipros are poker addicts like yourself who have used their skills at the game to turn a little profit. Or a lot of profit. They don't quit their jobs, unless they pull a Raymer, lol.

I guess all I'm saying is, tournaments are nice, they're fun, and yes, sometimes the best player does win the tournament, but if you want to take your game to the next level, I suggest working on cash games. They're just more consistent. HP will like you for it too because they rake a lot more off the cash games than the tournaments. :angel:

PS - not that i do so myself, but living off of ring games isn't as hard as it seems really. If you can live off $800 a week ($40,000 a year) - given a 50 week workyear, and 40 hours a week, you'd only have to be able to beat a single 10/20 limit game for 1BB an hour. Of course, getting there and staying there is the hardest part. Most people can't do it. But a semipro player only has to play that 10/20 for a secondary income and for the love of the game. Playing 10 hours a week and getting your one bb in a 10/20 is still $10k a year. Maybe if you beat the game consistently, you can build a retirement bankroll and when you turn 50 or whatever, then you can play professionally while collecting a pension etc. If i live that long I might do that myself (lol).

[Spyke_Daddy]

Sit-n-Gos don't require as much luck than MTTs and you can make a good hourly rate at those tables as well. Playing MTTs online exclusively is going to generate swings your bankroll may not be able to tolerate.

Your best bet is brick and mortar cash tables, in my opinion, if you have one close by with lots of tourists and out of towners. I really don't know many people who make their primary living playing poker online, in fact, I know none. There are a few of us that play poker online and use the profits to fund our expensive hobbies. ;-) I really don't think I could take the swings of a poker pro and the dullness of poker eight hours a day for a year. Perhaps I don't have the intestinal fortitude, eh?

[coco beanner]

I agree with spike that B&M cash games can be very profitable. (If you are in the right type of location) But I have a much better ROI online because of the ability to play multiple tables at a time and see way more hands per hour.

[heraclitus V]

luck cuts both ways so the quality of your game determines whether or not you quit your day job... streaks are the same, you can be wiped out at any time so play only with cash on hand and never borrow to bet... :dance:

[GVT1955]

Their are very few people that make a living on tournaments alone.
I have been in the poker business for over 30 yrs. If you want to make a living at it, you have to grind out the cash games weather it be limit or no limit. Remember half of playing poker for a living is money management. It is one of the biggest mistakes people make is playing above your bankroll. Tournaments are just bonus for your yearly earnings. Its a hard way to make a easy living.
Getem in the air
Moe

[JimSchwartz]

I would like to play more cash games, but early in my poker playing career, I found I lost most of my money playing cash games. I was like $3,000 down, but when I looked back at my tourney stats, I was operating at about a 125% ROI (Return on Investment). Therefore, I realized I had lost all my money strictly in the Cash environment.

That caused me to tighten up my game and stick just to Tourneys until I got better... and over time, I slowly recovered some of my losses... Whihc makes sense according to my ROI.

However, at this point, I feel I've learned enough and would like to earn more, and am starting to consider the cash games again.

One thing I'd say for a beginner, is stay far away from the Limit Games below $3-$6. I started those again recently and got so frustrated by the bad beats. So many people play random hands in those, you can't get anyone to fold, so there's tons of deadwood catching anything, and you can't put anyone on anything resembling a good hand.

But some winning cash players recommended the PL 1-1 and NL 1-1 games to me. I may try these again, but since my bank is less volatile playing Tournies, I still have my fear of losing in Cash games from earlier last year.

What level cash games would you guys recommend for someone with about a $750 bank? Can I move up to $5-$10 Limit? (Although I think $3-$6 is fairly good). Should I play 5-5NL or will $1-1 suffice -- since the buy-ins are lower ($25?), it will protect me against big $100 single hand losses?

Thanks.

[OCVI]

I would like to play more cash games, but early in my poker playing career, I found I lost most of my money playing cash games. I was like $3,000 down, but when I looked back at my tourney stats, I was operating at about a 125% ROI (Return on Investment). Therefore, I realized I had lost all my money strictly in the Cash environment.

That caused me to tighten up my game and stick just to Tourneys until I got better... and over time, I slowly recovered some of my losses... Whihc makes sense according to my ROI.

However, at this point, I feel I've learned enough and would like to earn more, and am starting to consider the cash games again.

One thing I'd say for a beginner, is stay far away from the Limit Games below $3-$6. I started those again recently and got so frustrated by the bad beats. So many people play random hands in those, you can't get anyone to fold, so there's tons of deadwood catching anything, and you can't put anyone on anything resembling a good hand.

But some winning cash players recommended the PL 1-1 and NL 1-1 games to me. I may try these again, but since my bank is less volatile playing Tournies, I still have my fear of losing in Cash games from earlier last year.

What level cash games would you guys recommend for someone with about a $750 bank? Can I move up to $5-$10 Limit? (Although I think $3-$6 is fairly good). Should I play 5-5NL or will $1-1 suffice -- since the buy-ins are lower ($25?), it will protect me against big $100 single hand losses?

Thanks.

With a bankroll of 750? You'd technically be underrolled to play 100NL, or 2-4 limit. You need a bigger roll really, regardless of skill. I'm not a person to say 300BBs or 15 buyins or more as a hard and fast rule per se, but you're gonig to have less than 200BBs at 2/4, and less than 8 buyins at 100NL, so you're underrolled for those games.

You shouldn't be worried about 'big $100 losses' because if you dont want to lose a full buyin, go to a lower level. I suggest for NL, you play 50NL b/c that is what you are rolled for. And never forget to shove when you have the best of it, regardless of the fear of losing a buyin (that's why you should play within your means).

GL with it. And ROI is only so useful... you need to weigh it with your hourly rate if you want to know anything meaningful.

[heraclitus V]

STAY AWAY FROM CASH GAMES UNLESS YOU HAVE CASH TO BURN

YOU NEVER KNOW WHO YOUR OPPONENT IS GOING TO BE

CASH NL GAMES ARE WHERE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY DO MAKE A LIVING ONLINE GO TO FEED

[proteinXx]

Making a living off of tournament (and i assume you mean MTT) poker is difficult mostly because you need a lot of sustained luck to win a tournament.

My suggestion though, is to get working on cash games. If you're a tournament player, go for NL cash games since its the format you'll be used to. The major difference is that luck is generally less of a factor in cash games. Except for some! :happy:

As for your comment on how many people make serious income off of poker, some people say 2%, some 5%. As for how many I know, of my personal friends I only know of one other making proper money. Of people I've met in the world of online poker, it's of course a different story. And its not just the big name pros - there are some online pros on this network, and many on other networks. You wont find any true pros below 10/20 or 4-4NL generally though, except when the 10/20 and up are dead, and the limit gurus are forced to play 5/10. But most of the people making money are semipro, meaning poker isn't their job. Essentially semipros are poker addicts like yourself who have used their skills at the game to turn a little profit. Or a lot of profit. They don't quit their jobs, unless they pull a Raymer, lol.

I guess all I'm saying is, tournaments are nice, they're fun, and yes, sometimes the best player does win the tournament, but if you want to take your game to the next level, I suggest working on cash games. They're just more consistent. HP will like you for it too because they rake a lot more off the cash games than the tournaments. :angel:

PS - not that i do so myself, but living off of ring games isn't as hard as it seems really. If you can live off $800 a week ($40,000 a year) - given a 50 week workyear, and 40 hours a week, you'd only have to be able to beat a single 10/20 limit game for 1BB an hour. Of course, getting there and staying there is the hardest part. Most people can't do it. But a semipro player only has to play that 10/20 for a secondary income and for the love of the game. Playing 10 hours a week and getting your one bb in a 10/20 is still $10k a year. Maybe if you beat the game consistently, you can build a retirement bankroll and when you turn 50 or whatever, then you can play professionally while collecting a pension etc. If i live that long I might do that myself (lol).

I know people who play for a living that drop down to 2-4 limit, etc (because they busted, haha). This might sound like I am stating the obvious, but don't play drunk either. I know more than one person who has lost a 100k roll playing drunk. There are plenty of people who make really good livings off of tournament and SNG play too, but if you want to be an SNG pro you have to multi table and grind. Don't ever overplay your roll either. Some people will play cash games with 100 bbs. You might as well just play black jack. It doesn't hurt to read books, learn the math, etc. Anything you can pick up will help your game, but nothing will help as much as table time. Playing 400,000 hands a year is not a lot if you are playing pro online.

[DoofusGoofus]

Playing 400,000 hands a year is not a lot if you are playing pro online.

With an average of about 55-60 hands per hour per table, you're looking at about 600 table hours per month. So, about a forty hour week working 4 tables at a time.



That sounds like a lot to me. Might as well get a real job.