Away Abuse And Solutions

[KietoFrito]

I have reasonable solutions to consider in changing "away" abuse. But first...

Yesterday, I played in 3 real money multis and a play money tourney. I've been playing on line now for over 4 years and one thing that gets me is these people who get their chip stack up and then go on "away". I can see having to run to the john, or ya got a phone call, or there's some emergency, or even your system or ISP shut down. But to go on "away" because you lack the confidence, the skill and the ability to make a decision is just pure ignorance and disrespect to the the other players at the table.

I was at a table with 6 "aways". In the beginning, everyone was there. Once they got their stacks up, they went on "away". What got me was they were chatting with one another. When the blinds came around, they came back, and then went on "away" again. Or if they had a decent hand, they would come back and play it with an all in at times and then go back on "away".

I tried to tell them that instead of going on "away", they could be there and fold every friggin hand. They responded with nonsense that pp a's or a/k don't always win. They'd rather play it safe and be in the money. So much for making a mistake here and there.

In contacting support, they say there's nothing they can do. Oh, my friends, there is.

My solutions:

1. Just deal the people who are "in" a hand. If a person is on "away", don't deal them in. Don't give them the opportunity to come back when they have a pp. Or at their whim when they see a hand that has potential. In real money, a person can stay away it seems forever. In live poker, if someone is away, they don't get a hand. Why should they get one here or anywhere else online. It slows the game down. Plus, they are actually "sitting out".

2. Stick with the time limit. Whether it's play or real, it could be a deterrent from people abusing the privilege of being able to step away from the table to take care of some business.

Those two things together would make it a much fairer game to all. I have more respect for a player who has a commanding lead in chips but is there to play. Even if they do end up taking all my chips from me making a mistake.

It's my opinion. What's yours?

[Lil IrishC2]

First let me say that I understand and respect your position on this matter, but what fun would it be to simply agree. Also, I should mention that I do not abuse the away option but...

1. If I have four tables going at a time and am involved in a big decision at another table I like the fact that I time out at my other tables and am not penalized for it.

2. In the B&M environment I can get up and leave for as long as I like, even in tournament play. I am required to pay all the blinds I missed when I come back for my next hand.

3. If there are several players at a table in away mode I have often seen the players still actually playing just take turns stealing the blinds. Nothing is ever said in the chat but the sophisticated players understand that it is an opportunity to steal blinds. Of course it only works when everyone "gets it".

4. If you can't beat players that aren't even playing ...... well, there might be some patience issues there.

5. In tournaments, the away players are blinded out by the start of the second hour. In terms of building a stack and then going in away mode to ensure they make the money, they may do that, but I'm not after my entry money back plus a couple of bucks, I want the final table. Tightening up, playing scared or going in away mode on the bubble is the best way not to make it to the big money spots.

Of course there are several exceptions to all of the above, but overall I really don't think that away players hurt the game, I like shorthanded poker best anyhow.

Just my opinion though, anything is better than sitting at the turning stone casino poker room and playing 22 hands an hour.

-Lil

ps. I refuse to spell check

[KietoFrito]

I have no problem with a player going on away to address something going on in their space. (ie. Bathroom call, phone call, emergency, another hand at another table, system going down, etc.). The site's programer can and should set up Algorithms to not deal the "away" player in. I like short handed games myself. But in dealing the "aways" in, they get to see their cards and come back if they want to. You're not dealt a hand at a table at a casino, or home game if you have to run to the john, or to the store to get beer in some cases, *cough cough*. Why should it be any different online? They still have to pay the blinds when they come back.

I think it's a crock to play in a game where I'm playing against people who do this just to make it into the money. I've won 5 multis and in the money many times without going on away. As for giving up money to an away, I've done that too. :eek: By clicking an auto button. :sad:

Thanks for the input Lil.

[Gary_J]

I see your points here Lil Irish but in this case I will have to agree with Kieto. I myself play multiple tables at a time and choose to disreguard what is happening on the other tables when i'm in a very important hand. I wouldn't be at all offended if I was not dealt cards on a table that I chose to disreguard. It was my choice to do that so I should be able to deal with the consequences. The fact that people bounce in and out when they see good cards is just not right. In a live situation your not there, your not dealt! It should be the same for online!

Now that you dislike me Lil Irish, I see you play at The Turning Stone!! :) Where you from? I grew up and lived in the Syracuse area for 36 years before moving to Michigan where I live now. I've played at the Turning Stone many times and still do. I travel back to Syr quite often to visit, in fact i'm leaving tomorrow (fri 14th) and was thinking about hitting th T.S. for a tourney or table. Any chance you'll be there? Just wondering?

Good Luck!!


Keep up the good work HP!! :happy:

[Lil IrishC2]

Hey Gary, (or should it be Mr. Gary now that you are a celeb :) )

I really haven't been back to TS since going online. I still enjoy the live game but its hard to justify from a earning potential stanpoint. I live in Ontario, about a 3.5 hour drive so we would go over and stay for a couple of nights. The biggest problem for me is that the place is dry! I couldn't beleive it the first time i went and found out there wasn't a drop of booze in the whole place. Ended up bringing in my own which is ok, but how weird is it that they dont sell it but you can bring your own?

In terms of the "away" situation (which I think is one of the bigger debates about online poker) I still dont get what the difference between sitting there and folding everything and putting yourself in away mode and automatically folding everything is? The only time its bad is when you play cards based on the "assumption" that the away player is really gone and play a lesser hand than you might normally play due to position in a short handed situation. I have been burned before by "thinking" that I could just steal his blind because he was away. It was really a good lesson, I tried to take advantage of some guys blind who was taking a wiz or answering the door and got caught. I perfer the away "abuser" to the "use every second of the allotted decision time every hand" abuser.

Regardless, good posts and a good thread! If anyone has anything to add, please do.
Best of luck tonight in the Invitational, I wont be in away mode for this one!

-Lil

[KietoFrito]

It's always bothered me when people go on away with a big stack just so they can be "in" the money. By not playing, even a decent hand, the eliminating their chances of making mistakes. Yes, they achieve th same results by just folding their hand no matter what. But there's that inner voice...This is too good to pass up. Like I said earlier, in the real game I was in, they were in "away" mode, but chatting with each other. Not only that, but when I bet, this guy came in just before it was his turn, went all in, and I didn't want to risk my stack so I dropped out. Then he went on away again and laughed about it in chat.

That's why I suggested that people who were on away not be dealt a hand until they came back. CYA tonight! :rolleyes:

[pycoder]

The Tournament Director's Association (TDA) rules are used in most brick and mortar tournaments these days. Those rules require that a player who is away from his seat be dealt in but that if he is not seated by the time the last down card is dealt, his hand is dead and may not be acted upon. I would be in favor of online sites adopting a similar rule. If you don't "return" to your seat before all down cards are dealt your hand will be immediately killed. Since the cards are dealt so fast, it would be dangerous to rely on your ability to spot a good hand and rejoin the game between the time you got your 2nd card and when the button position got it's 2nd card. Obviously, this would make it impossible for the blinds to pretend to be away until it was their turn to act. If they are way at the end of the deal of the down cards, you are welcome to make a move at stealing the blinds without having to worry that they will jump back in at the last minute.

I can't tell you how many times I have seen an online "away" player actually win an "unraised" or "all in" pot near the end of a tourney. In the brick and mortar tournament world this can't happen. The "away" player, even in the big blind will be dealt in and then his cards will be folded by the dealer.

The issue of using up the player clock repeatedly (either in an attempt to stall the game and survive to make the money, or because the player is playing too many games to pay attention) is a whole other issue that should be addressed. A number of other sites have a better approach to this problem than does HP. I like the way Poker Stars controls the clock. You have a fairly short time to act (15 seconds I think) but each player has a 60 second clock that they can fall back on if they want to take more time to consider a hand. Once you use up your 60 second clock, it's gone. This provides the player with an incentive to act reasonably quickly and not eat into their 60 second clock unless they need it.

It took a long time for the brick and mortar establishments to come up with a consistent set of rules (in the form of the TDA rules) for tournament play. Online poker sites are springing up faster than porn sites these days and it will take a while for the inevitable shake out and consolidation to occur. Eventually, I expect that some group like the TDA will form with the objective of making online tourney rules consistent between online sites. Personally, I hope I live long enough to see it happen.

[KietoFrito]

An extremely well written and thought out reply and some very good ideas that have been tested and have been successful. However, in playing on line, sometimes, when ya got to go, ya got to go. So what's wrong with not being dealt in because you had to go on away? Nothing. I say just don't deal the away in at all. When they come back, they pay their blinds that they missed if any, and continue playing. I play at a bunch of sites and a little of each one would go a long way here.

At PS, if you sit out, you don't get a hand. And I do like the time limit there as well. Others don't have to wait long at all. It's even a shorter limit at some other sites I've played at.

I used to play 4 or 5 tables at a time and sometimes, from 3 different sites. It was fun and sometimes pretty crazy. Now, I would much rather play one or two tables at a time. Less stress. Yea right. :rolleyes:

If I was to have a gripe about anything, it would be the graphics. Some are just plain dingy. But hey, who cares. I love having the opportunity to play whenever I want during the day. It's helped my play at the casinos here also. I used to make a living playing for a long time. Looking back, I've learned so much over the last 5 years from playing online. Both real and play.

[pycoder]

Keito wrote:
"At PS, if you sit out, you don't get a hand. And I do like the time limit there as well. Others don't have to wait long at all. It's even a shorter limit at some other sites I've played at."

Keito, are you talking about Tourneys at Poker Stars or regular live games? I've never noticed that anyone got to sit out of a tourney while their blinds went past and then put the missed blinds into a pot when they came back. If this were allowed, what would stop me from sitting out forever (since my blinds would never be subtracted from my chips while I was sitting out) and waiting until it was just me and one other player before I returned to put a massive amount of missed blinds into the pot and play head up for 1st or 2nd place? For that matter, what would stop a whole table from "sitting out" and thereby not play any hands and not lose any blinds while the rest of the tourney tables continued normal play?

I think forcing tournament players to post their blinds in turn whether they are away or not is the most fair way to go. I agree that if you gotta go, you gotta go (and I do).

In live games, online rules seem to mimic B&M casinos with respect to being away from the table. If you are gone, you are not dealt in and if you miss one or more sets of blinds, you must either wait for the blinds to come back around to you or you have to post one set of blinds with the small blind playing as dead money. There is one sore spot here also though. In a B&M casino, if you are gone for more that a specified amount of time, your chips are picked up and another player is allowed to take over your seat. When I play in live games online, I frequently sit down at tables with 2 or more "away" players and I have never seen one of these players removed from a game even when there are significant waiting lists for the table.

I look forward to meeting you at a tourney table soon. People who take the time to have a reasoned discussion about poker and its oddities are alright in my book.

[KietoFrito]

I was talking about live poker. Where I play at, if you get up from the table, they give you about 10 to 15 minutes away and they place blind markers at your spot. I can't remember because I am rarely away for any amount of time. When you get back, they ask you if you want to wait for the big blind. If not, you post your big and small blind. If you're gone longer than that, the manager takes your chips off the table and gives the seat to someone else. It's all about being coureous to the other players. But thats a ring game.

In a tourney situation at the casinos I play at, there's usually no one away from their seat. But if they are gone momentarily for whatever reason, they are dealt a hand and if they aren't back to see the cards, they are mucked.

I think in online tourneys where any real money is at stake, they should not be dealt a hand. We're playing with people from all over the world. Some of these people think they've beaten the system with a silly system of their own. And thats building up their stacks and sitting out reducing the element of making mistakes to increase the odds of being in the money. I am sure you've seen it.

What got to me the other night, as I said in the original thread, there were 6 aways at my table who were chatting about it laughing. When their blind came, they would come back and play or fold the hand. Then go back on away. It just got to me is all.

I'd like to see some changes made but the suggestions I made earlier are all I could think of.

[pycoder]

I think we are mostly in agreement. The goal is to make it disadvantageous to mark yourself "away" while you are still actually watching you hands. My solution would be to deal the "away" players in and then immediately kill the hand and assessing any blinds that might be due. If I understand your position correctly, you would not deal the "away" players cards but I'm not sure how you collect their blinds.

Anyway, we've probably beat this dead horse enough. It would be nice if I thought the support folks were looking at these threads and paying attention to the thoughts of the players.

Good luck.