TERMINATOR_Z
03-02-2006, 06:47 PM
I was playing a 50 cent, No-Limit CASH ring game, when I lost $20 on the following hand. I could use some advice as to how I could minimize my losing hands. Did I play this hand correctly?
PREFLOP: It was passed to me, and I limped with K-T from middle positition, and the next player after me limped as well (he won the hand), there's 5 players in the pot.
FLOP: 10S,5C,3C
I make a pot sized bet with Top Pair, high kicker, because I want to discourage this flush draw. Only one player called.
TURN: 7D
I bet half the pot, he called again.
RIVER: KH
Giving me top two pair! I, again, bet half the size of the pot, and he raised me 3 times my bet! I called and lost to his 6-4 unsuited in the hole, for a straight.
How could I have minimized my loss in this hand? I had $10 of my money in the pot already, and it cost me another $10 to call his raise, and I did have top two pair. Any and all suggestions are welcome. Thanks!
Skallagrim45
03-05-2006, 03:22 PM
Just my 2 cents, but low money poker is different...
The question, as a wise old poker player once said to me, is do you want to win pots, or do you want to win money.
If you want to win pots, always raise when you are first to enter the pot and keep hammering. This will, though to a lesser extent at low levels, drive competition out, and leave you (usually) facing only the stronger starting hands. But the pots you win will be smaller.
On the other hand, limping will keep more players in and disquise your hand too, giving you the chance to trap someone and win real money. But then you really are gambling that the luck of the draw will give you the best hand, or give EVERYONE junk (and you might succeed with Squid's bluff option).
In the case you described, If you had raised big the 3-6 guy would likely have folded, but so would most everyone else and you win a small pot. Or maybe you get one caller and he folds when his hand doesnt hit the flop. Same result.
Or, you do what you did, and hope that you have the best hand. But when the guy called, you noticed a flush possibility, but not the straight possibility. After his call on the flop you should have guessed he had something...
I, if I had limped originally, probably would have bet very small after that first call, or even checked, to see if the guy came back at me, and then tried to guess the relative strength of the hands possible.
Far from a perfect solution, but about the only other course of action open after the limp-bet-call you described.
Skallagrim
ADAMTHEXPERT
07-07-2006, 07:23 PM
I was playing a 50 cent, No-Limit CASH ring game, when I lost $20 on the following hand. I could use some advice as to how I could minimize my losing hands. Did I play this hand correctly?
PREFLOP: It was passed to me, and I limped with K-T from middle positition, and the next player after me limped as well (he won the hand), there's 5 players in the pot.
FLOP: 10S,5C,3C
I make a pot sized bet with Top Pair, high kicker, because I want to discourage this flush draw. Only one player called.
TURN: 7D
I bet half the pot, he called again.
RIVER: KH
Giving me top two pair! I, again, bet half the size of the pot, and he raised me 3 times my bet! I called and lost to his 6-4 unsuited in the hole, for a straight.
How could I have minimized my loss in this hand? I had $10 of my money in the pot already, and it cost me another $10 to call his raise, and I did have top two pair. Any and all suggestions are welcome. Thanks!
well, I guess it's a good idea I've nothing to do, as this question is really going to require a lot of time to PROPERLY answer.
First of all, please use proper phrazing, to describe what game you're playing.
there's no such thing as "50 cent no limit" In order to give a correct, answer, ATE needs the blind size, and maximum buy in.
Thus, the RIGHT way to say the game is ".25-.50 50 max" or .10-./25 $25 max.
The whole notion of abbreviated speak, is a SICK invention of t hose wonderful (not) folks of Madison avenue. Trying to fit in more words, in the same 30-second spot. And FRANKLY, I am BEYOND sick of it.
Every new CLUCKING word invented by these discusting freaks, makes me want to barf.
RESIST abbreviated speak!
what was wrong with "baby back ribs" did it REALLY have to be changed to "baby backs" Did "grey hairs" HAVE to become "greys"
Sports Illustrated has NO business calling themselves, "SI"
Now my friend, if you think I'm just being silly, consider this: Poker is a very complex game, involving MANY different elements. I cannot give you the correct answer, and you will NOT learn, until you learn to ask questions including ALL the information that is important to consider.
Position and bet size, is but the tip of the iceburg.
Anyway, The first thing to learn, is that UNSUITED "big card" hands are NOT what you should be looking for. More ways to lose, not enough ways to win.
And this applies to EVERY one, except Ace king. If ATE would steer you away (for the most part) from KQ, then just what do you think I'd have you do with KING TEN?
Ok, y'all here's a original ATE term, for you all to have fun saying for the rest of your lives:
WRIST EXCERSIZE! Well, online we cannot fling those POOPY cards into the muck, but you get the general idea.
Contrary to what another responder has said, there is nothing wrong with limping with certain hands and certain situations, but THIS AIN"T IT.
Now, alot of your starting hand strategies are based on your table image.
The whole point of something like a K10 is to make a hand a hellofa lot better, than JUST top pair. (The fact that you made two pair on the end, is not important, you did NOT have this, when you made two big bets)
In fact
Any ATE fans that are trying to learn, should really even get the TERM "top pair" OUT of your lexicon of cash game no limit!
In most situations, we are NOT interested in "top pair" Certainly NOT for any significant money. "top pair" is a LIMIT thing, not a no limit thing.
It's really pretty simple, in order to get someon'es whole stack (which is the idea) you have to:
(1) Have something BIG
(2) Have opponent(s) have something Big, but not as good as yours
And, the bigger the stack sizes, the greater this principle applies.
Think about it: If you have AK, and the flop is A 3 7, you are NOT really that high, on the spectrum of hands. YOu've got the SEVENTH best possible hand, and thus
HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY EXPECT SOMEONE TO CALL, with the 8th, 9th, 10th, etc. possible hand?
for ALL their money. Againa, this AIN"T limit!
Now, as ATE said earlier, of course there are exceptions. If someone else raises BEFORE the flop, and you hit this flop, IF (and that's a BIG if) they have AQ or AJ, there is a very good chance you'll get all their money.
But, in situations where you have NO information as to the likely content of the opponents hand.
Betting JUST top pair, for more than a minimal amount, is not how to play this game, as
If they have a better hand you lose.
If they don't, it's very unlikely that they will call.
If you ever get into playing REAL no limit (Ed note: to those of y'all uninitiated into ATE, "real" no limit means that there is NO maximum buy in. while ATE has grown to tolerate max buy in games, they are not and should NOT be called "no limt")
You had BETTER really consider, and practice what I just said.
'WHEN THE HAND YOU HAVE IS ONLY TOP PAIR, REGARDLESS OF HOW HIGH THAT PAIR IS, IN MOST SITUATIONS YOU WILL EITHER NOT BE CALLED, OR BE BEATEN IF YOU ARE CALLED"
Making a pot-sized bet, solely on the pretense that your opponent HAS the flush draw, is NOT sound thinking.
First of all, it's VERY unlikley, against ONE opponent that THIS is what they actually have.
AND, with a lim p only pot size, there really is NOTHING for you to have to worry about protecting.
It's all about risk vrs. reward.
By making a bet that brings you ever so closer to committing your WHOLE stack, to win a limp limp limp size pot.
YOU ARE NOW RISKING 20 BUCKS, TO TRY TO PROTECT THE TWO BUCKS (OR SO) that is in the pot.
(2) A bet of this size, is NOT enough to even THINK of getting a flush draw out, and in situations where you cannot reasonably expect a draw to g et out (in other words, they are GOING to call anyway) DEFENSE, is often the best strategy. BUT, not the kind of defense you think!
WE, are not, in this spot, interested in protecting the POT. We are interested in protecting your STACK.
(Ed note: My God! Hollywood people, do you have ANY inkling of just how good I am? Do you have ANY idea, of how good, accurate, complete, and FUNNY my information is? Hey, WOODS! Where's my FREAKIN" tourament entry!? By DEFINATION, any material I write, AUTOMATICALLY wins any "writing contest")
So, you play DEFENSE, by betting less, and thus you LOSE less when they hit their draw on the turn.
ANY time someone calls you, in NL you should be concerned. Thus, the seven on the turn, should have concerned you. Again, you CANNOT presuppose that the flush draw, is what they have. You MUST be considering, if 1010K75 is still the best hand, and factor this into your bet.
By beting half the pot, you are ALMOST giving the flush-drawin' dude, or dudess the correct pot odds to go for the flush, and if they have an overcard or overcard(s) that are live win cards for them, they ARE getting the correct pot odds
(we will cover IMPLIED odds, in another article)
And, AGAIN, digging your grave that much deeper, when they either have, or subsequently MAKE a better hand.
A free card was not in order, so a check was OUT! If you still have confidence that you have the best hand, I would have either bet the whole pot. If you feel that you may not have the best hand, I would have bet 1/3rd of the pot. For this sum, you can still get a call from a LESSOR hand, such as middle pair, and bet in a situation where the person only has 5 or less outs to beat you.
BUT, for either of the above-two bets, it's with the INTENTION OF FOLDING, to a raise.
Yes, betting with tthe intention of folding to a raise, is a very important part of poker. YOu cannot be so chicken, that you don't bet, or so FOOLHARDY, as to continue when it's likely you are beaten.
THE CORRECT BLEND OF OFFENSE/DEFENSE is very important, and NOT something that you will learn overnight.
Yes, Virgina, this game is a hellofa lot harder, than all those trying to sell you poker products would try to have you believe
Learn poker! IN six eazy lessons!
BULLSHIP!
Now on to the river. Ok, my pokergrasshopper friend (note this term is not intended to insult, it's just how ATE talks. compared to ATE, no matter who you are, you are a grasshopper, and YES, this includes the "big boys")
Heres' where you really clucked up!
Betting on the river, is an entirely different animal, then betting on the earlier "streets"
THIS IS FOR THE REASON THAT THERE IS NO LONGER ANY CONCERN THAT BY FAILING TO BET, YOU WILL ALLOW SOMEONE TO HIT A HAND THAT THEY WOULD NOT HAVE HIT HAD YOU BET"
And, that, is one of the top three keys, to winning hold em.!!!!!!!1
Now, you can only gain two possible things, from a bet (on the river)
(1) Getting value from weaker hands.
(2) Getting a better hand to fold.
The fact that an overcard was what be hit the river, makes your bet so illogical!
People are terrified of overcards (and, to a certain extent, justifiedly so)
so, if they cannot beat KINGS, they are NOT going to call a half pot bet!
AND, you just cannot think, that they were calling with just overcards, and now this is what they happened to hit!
In this case, how the hello minus "o" do you think they can call with say, 10Q or 10J, IF YOU STILL BE BETTIN' WHEN THE K ING HITS!
so, a bet of say, 1/4 or 1/5th OF THE POT would have been appropriate.
This is a bet that someone is almost compelled to call with ANY pair, as they are getting just toooo good of pot odds to just throw awy, to a possible bluff
Also, AGAIN, you are playing DEFENSE, by not committing the rest of your stack, should you be raised.
Picking the right amount to bet, in NLHE, is a blend of skill and experience, and AGAIN,
Is something that takes time to master.
and finally, when they RAISE that big?!
The overwhelming vast majority, are NOT going to do that, without a set or a straight.
And, at this small level of play, almost NO ONE, is ever going to make a bluff raise, so this should have been folded, after waiting a while (to make 'em think you are thinking about calling, so in the rare event they ARE bluffing, they might not do it next time)
Ok, I have spoken.
Adam
dher5502
07-07-2006, 10:46 PM
I was playing a 50 cent, No-Limit CASH ring game, when I lost $20 on the following hand. I could use some advice as to how I could minimize my losing hands. Did I play this hand correctly?
PREFLOP: It was passed to me, and I limped with K-T from middle positition, and the next player after me limped as well (he won the hand), there's 5 players in the pot.
FLOP: 10S,5C,3C
I make a pot sized bet with Top Pair, high kicker, because I want to discourage this flush draw. Only one player called.
TURN: 7D
I bet half the pot, he called again.
RIVER: KH
Giving me top two pair! I, again, bet half the size of the pot, and he raised me 3 times my bet! I called and lost to his 6-4 unsuited in the hole, for a straight.
How could I have minimized my loss in this hand? I had $10 of my money in the pot already, and it cost me another $10 to call his raise, and I did have top two pair. Any and all suggestions are welcome. Thanks!
First i really wouldn't be playing KT in middle position. If you are so inclined you should've made a standard raise preflop. By raising you get 64o to fold unless he is a complete idiot. If it get reraised behind you then you have an easy fold. By only calling you gave 64o a chance to hit on the flop and clobber you on the head on the turn.
Second Your opponents large raise on the river should've been blaring a warning siren off in your head. By betting all the way your opponent has either put you on top pair or a low set and when you got raised on the river you had to consider the possibility that he either slow played a set of 7's or a straight on the turn. It would've been a tough fold, but probably would've been correct in this case.
Dave H.
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