Need some help with hand reading

[GoldBoar]

Hi,

I have a ring game situation that I would like some constructive comments on, so I'm asking on this forum because I know that's what I'll get! There is one particular part that I need help with, but I'm sure I'll think of other questions as I go, so I'll fire them off too.

First the setup: Dime No Limit table, $10 max buyin. I've watched the table for a few orbits before joining, and it's loose, with only two or three particular players who are making preflop raises. Mostly people all just limp. I haven't been at the table long enough to have any kind of image (in my mind, anyway).

Seat 1: $32.86 (a raiser)
Seat 2: $4.48 (me -- I sat in with $5)
Seat 3: $9.90
Seat 4: $4.00
Seat 5: $0.70 (someone who reloads to a buck and plays anything)
Seat 6: $10.21 (button)
Seat 7: $7.95
Seat 8: $14.91 (a raiser)
Seat 9: $9.72
Seat 10: $8.53

Seat 9 is Under The Gun (UTG) and folds; seat 10 limps, seat 1 folds. My hole cards are Js Jh, and I raise to 40 cents.

Q1: Is this a right move? I think it was, because even though JJ is not an amazing pocket pair, I still want to eliminate 74 offsuits rather than let them limp just to build the pot. I also don't want to limp and be faced with a potential raise from late position, made just because everyone limped. I know the "See the flop as cheaply as possible hoping to flop a set and trap" way to play this, but opted not to use it.

Seat 3 calls, seat 4 had just joined and had to post, but folds (meaning an extra dime in the pot). Seat 5 reraises to 70 cents and is now all-in. As I said above, I consider this nothing to worry about, especially since it's only another 30 cents and he's done for the rest of the hand. Seat 6 on the Button calls, both blinds fold, and Seat 10 (the original limper) calls. It's back to me. I reraise to $1.

Q2: Is this correct? There were still 3 others in the pot with me, not counting the guy who was all-in with anything. I reraised looking for at least one to fold and give me an idea of what I was up against.

Seat 3 (who had called $0.40) calls both rereraises to $1, as do the Button and Seat 10 (the original limper). I got noone to fold; the pot is $4.95. The flop is 6h 4s 8c.

Seat 10 bets $1.10. I smooth call.

Q3: Was this an ok move? I have an overpair and this player has done nothing but call. I still have no idea what the two behind me have so I figure I'll call and react to them. I see that someone holding 57 has flopped a straight, but I really don't see that someone holding 57 *at a ten cent big blind table* would have called three raises to $1 preflop.

Seat 3 folds, the Button calls and the pot is now $8.25. We see the turn: Qh.

Seat 10 checks. I now believe I have him beaten; I have $2.38 and bet $1.10 of it. The Button calls, as does Seat 10. I still haven't gotten a bead on what the Button has, and I figure Seat 10 is just hoping to somehow get lucky. The pot is $11.55. We see the river: Qs

As expected, Seat 10 checks again. I check. The button has both of us covered and moves all-in with $7.01. Seat 10 folds.

Comment: I realized as soon as I checked that I was pot committed and should have bet my last $1.28 first. Even as I write this up, I guess I was hoping the Button would just check too, being afraid of that second Q. I dunno. Back to the action.

Indeed, I do call. Our hands are revealed: my pocket Jacks to the button's A6 clubs. My QQJJ8 beats his QQ66A, and I pull in a pot of $13.41 (less rake and what the button got back because he bet more than I had).

After all this rambling, here's my main question in all of this: what kind of read could I have been able to make on the Button to KNOW that I was ahead? Was it even possible? I may have (and probably did!) do several things wrong on this hand, but luck was with me (if nothing else) and I won. I'd really like to play it more solidly next time.

Thank you in advance for your constructive comments. If you really feel the need to ream me out because you think I "played like a donkey", how about doing it in a PM rather than here in public.

PS: the $1 reloader who reraised all-in to 70 cents showed K9h.

PPS: In writing this up, I noticed something that I hadn't when playing this hand. After the turn, I should have known that the Button didn't have that 57 straight because he didn't raise to push off the heart flush draw created by the turn. That still doesn't tell me that my Jacks were good.

[GoldBoar]

Ok folks, I can see that this has been read 16 times. No one has constructive comments to make?

[Skallagrim45]

You want responses so here goes:

1st and 2nd questions: raising with pocket jacks, especially when its an open raise, is the traditional way to play JJ - trying to thin the field of hands that can easily outdraw you is clearly correct - sometimes you dont want to do this (you dont want to reraise unless you really want to put a lot of money into a 50/50 race and are willing to chance being dominated by a higher pair (of course sometmes people raise with 10/10 or less...) - a very conservative play is to not raise with Jacks, see the flop, and go all in if the flop does not contain a K,Q or A. You also have to realize, as far as getting people to fold with your preflop reraise, THAT ONCE PEOPLE HAVE PUT MONEY IN AT A 10 CENT TABLE THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO FOLD PREFLOP. This trusim works all the way to about a 2 dollar table.

3rd question: smooth calling in that situation is extremely conservative, and most of the time will cost you money: no flush yet, and the odds of opponent having the perfect 2 cards for a straight are small. The bet here was, and you shoulld have realized it was, an attempt to get everyone else to fold to a marginal (top pair) or good drawing hand, or a bluff. You should have reraised then, if only to find out whether he really had a straight - a called reraise would have indicated you had best hand at that time - if he reraised you there you should worry.

And finally, checking after the first Q was a conservative, but not hardly inappropriate - quite easy for one of your 2 opponents to have a Q (this is why position is so important in hold-em)- but when no one bet the Q, and the second Q fell, you should have known your JJ was likely the best hand, and it was .... quite frankly you made the right plays for the wrong reasons as your call on the flop and check on the turn probably convinced the Button that his pair of 6s was good and he made the big bet. in essence you slow played him, and it worked, but you did it because you were scared, and you shouldn't have been scared.

Hope you find my opinion valuable - good luck

Skallagrim

[GoldBoar]

Hi Skallagrim45,

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. Your comments are very helpful.

I will point out one thing in your analysis, though. I didn't check on the turn. First to act checked (Seat 10), and I bet just under half of what I had left, which was then called by both the button and Seat 10. I was after my "turn bet" was called by both that I checked on the river, and like I said, I realized right away that I should have bet on the river.

Does my betting the turn, rather than checking it, change your read?

Thanks again.

Edited because I wanted to add that the point of "raising the flop bet with my overpair" was well taken. Thanks again.

[Skallagrim45]

Ooops - sorry for my misread of your post :oops:

My comment on your turn bet is this: dangerous move! If the button was holding a Q your toast! But it was not a bad move, because the fact that he didn't raise showed he didn't have a Q (unless he was so deviously sneaky and risky that he would slow play that situation) - His big bet on the river was therefore almost all bluff - he probably thought you had a small pair too and if he bet big you would back off and if you called he could hope your pair was smaller. He probably also guessed you didn't have a Q when he saw the second one hit (most players think if 2 come on the board its less likely someone has a third....mathematically this is correct, but its still a dangerous gamble).

In thinking it through, however, betting 1.10 at that point was maybe not the best use of your money: 1.10 isnt going to scare anybody out of a 8.00+ pot, so you risked 1.10 to find out basically the same info as if you had checked ... if the button had bet it would tell you the same as if he had raised your bet "Im betting like I gotta Q." That he didnt make that sort of play USUALLY means no Q.

Keep playing and thinking, its the only way to keep improving.

Just note again that at a .10 table people are going to be a lot more reckless than at the higher levels.

Skallagrim:waytogo:

[kkot]

First raise is good.

Raise more PF when it comes back to you. You really don't want to play a 4 handed pot with jacks.

Push the flop. You probably have the best hand right now. Protect it.

[GoldBoar]

Ok everyone, time for another installment of "What did he have?"!

Hold'em Limit ($0.25/$0.50) (told you I moved up stakes :) )

Seat 1: STYX 1259 ($9.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Rickster8825 ($10.85 in chips)
Seat 3: Zhoni I ($4.90 in chips)
Seat 4: Hatch666 ($9.30 in chips) (Button)
Seat 5: allansis ($5.25 in chips)
Seat 6: NLGambler ($9.65 in chips)
Seat 7: grelet ($22.50 in chips)
Seat 8: crabbysam ($8.20 in chips)
Seat 9: GoldBoar ($3.15 in chips) A:diamond: K:diamond:
Seat 10: Sniffer66 ($15 in chips)
allansis: posts small blind $0.10
NLGambler: posts big blind $0.25
Sniffer66: posts big blind $0.25
*** PRE-FLOP ***
grelet: folds
crabbysam: calls $0.25
GoldBoar: raises $0.25 to $0.50
Sniffer66: folds
STYX 1259: folds
Rickster8825: folds
Zhoni I: calls $0.50
Hatch666: folds
allansis: calls $0.40
NLGambler: folds
crabbysam: calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** 5:spade: Q:spade: 8:diamond:
allansis: checks
crabbysam: checks
GoldBoar: bets $0.25
Zhoni I: calls $0.25
allansis: calls $0.25
crabbysam: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** 5:spade: Q:spade: 8:diamond: | 9:diamond:
allansis: checks
crabbysam: checks
GoldBoar: checks
Zhoni I: checks
*** RIVER *** 5:spade: Q:spade: 8:diamond: | 9:diamond: | J:diamond:
allansis: bets $0.50
crabbysam: folds
GoldBoar: raises $0.50 to $1
Zhoni I: calls $1
allansis: raises $0.50 to $1.50

Here's where you get to play: What does allansis have?

[x searcher]

Wow that's a crazy hand. I'd need a lot more info on allansis and your table image. But, since you posted this and with allansis reraise I'd guess 10:diamond: 7:diamond:

Q:diamond: T:diamond: probably would make a little more sense with the preflop call from the SB, but then she probably would have reraised on the flop or bet out on the turn.

[BrendanEff]

My opinion is that you really never have a good idea of what you are up against at the lowest level tables. The main reason has to do with what I have heard called the "cringe" factor. Basicly, people tend to learn the most and play the best when the amount of money on the line actually means something to the players involved. If you lose all that you have at the table, will it make you cringe? If not, then you may end up playing a certain way no matter what the consequences. Many people will try to run over a table, or call every all-in, or go all in all the time. The 2 bucks it cost them means nothing to them, they just want to be aggressive. If the loss won't make them cringe, then the loss won't matter to them. Ergo, they play like jackasses.

[GoldBoar]

Wow that's a crazy hand. I'd need a lot more info on allansis and your table image.

I know where you're coming from by asking about this info, but, for the sake of this exercise, assume allansis has just sat down and this is the second hand he's been dealt (he did post the small blind for this hand). We don't know anything about each other, unless he was watching the table invisibly before taking a seat. As a player still in the hand, I (you) have to make a decision.

I found your "read" interesting. Thanks for the post. :)

[GoldBoar]

My opinion is that you really never have a good idea of what you are up against at the lowest level tables. The main reason has to do with what I have heard called the "cringe" factor.

I hear you, and I do agree, but how can you tell if someone is in that zone or not? If we, for the sake of the exercise, make the table stakes $25/$50, but Andy Beal* is sitting at the table, would he be reckless?

Thanks for the post. Hoping more people will play along. :)

* Andy Beal is a rich Texas banker who has played HIGH stakes Limit Holdem, heads up, against members of "The Corporation". I'll let Google tell you the rest.

[BrendanEff]

I hear you, and I do agree, but how can you tell if someone is in that zone or not? If we, for the sake of the exercise, make the table stakes $25/$50, but Andy Beal* is sitting at the table, would he be reckless?

The only way you can know something like this is to file it in your player notes and hope to use that information some other time. (Effectively, you have just paid for information.) And if you someday find yourself at a 25/50 table with Andy Beal, I'd hope you had the rest of your money in a mattress somewhere, because the whole US banking system has probably crashed entirely. :silly:

[GoldBoar]

Ok, so to get back back to the point of my "game", what do you think allansis had? Are you sticking by "I don't know"?

[x searcher]

Even though I'm guessing he's got a straight flush, if I were you in that game I would still re raise.

[BrendanEff]

Ok, so to get back back to the point of my "game", what do you think allansis had? Are you sticking by "I don't know"?

I think it is virtually impossible to decipher what someone has early in a limit game without any other information. I played a lot of limit when I started here, and I know that tons of people will max bet the river with nothing just to try to get people to fold. However, he could also have something as simple as AJ of spades, AJ-off, J5, a paired spade, a low diamond flush, a paired, busted spade draw... I don't think you can worry much about the straight flush, because the chances are very small and you wouldn't lose much anyway, with the checked turn and all. Being afraid of the straight flush, in my mind, is a lot like worrying about someone hitting quads on the river; you are just going to lose the hand no matter what, and cannot play afraid of it.

Early on, in a game of limited info, you cannot expect to have an accurate read on a hand like this. However, if you play this guy again later, now you can expect to get some type of read on him.

[GoldBoar]

Geez, people stopped posting, so I didn't see it when I review "New Posts", and I forgot all about it until now!

As for what the two other players in the hand had for hole cards, I've waited too long, and the hand history is gone :oops: so I can't reveal all 4 cards exactly, but they each had a Ten to give them straights, hence allansis's bet and re-raise. My "buying a free card" by betting the flop and checking the turn (which in this case worked to perfection) must have made him put me on a missed draw, or maybe two pair.

And to finish the story completely, I only called, rather than cap the betting, and "Zhoni I" called, so I got the extra bet that I would have gotten if I had capped causing "Zhoni I" to fold and allansis to call. Of course, after seeing the hands revealed, "Zhoni I" probably would have called too, so I lost out on 2 bets.

[x searcher]

Thanks for posting the answer. That's certainly more logical than what I came up with. I like the idea of this thread a lot. Maybe some other people will post some similar tests of hand reading.